DUST Search - Lag compensation

Imp Smash wrote:

T3chnomanc3r wrote:

Also since you put forth a terrible idea obviously without having done the required reading of the quoted article. We have enough people exploiting weakness of lag comp without adding more vectors:

Quote:

The question arises, why is hit detection so complicated on the server? Doing the back tracking of player positions and dealing with precision errors while hit detection could be done client-side way easier and with pixel precision. The client would just tell the server with a "hit" message what player has been hit and where. We can't allow that simply because a game server can't trust the clients on such important decisions. Even if the client is "clean" and protected by Valve Anti-Cheat, the packets could be still modified on a 3rd machine while routed to the game server. These "cheat proxies" could inject "hit" messages into the network packet without being detected by VAC (a "man-in-the-middle" attack).

Imp Smash wrote:

That kind of lag compensation leads to @curving@ bullets and dying behind corners or having your health fall from 70% to 0% in 0 seconds. It's damn annoying. if they could optimize the netcode so that more data is client side and less data is needed to be sent + is sent in smaller easier to use memory packets lag would drop significantly. THEN lag compensation like you describe would be more viable with fewer drawbacks.

I'm aware of how too much client side information can open the way for cheating.

Critical information should still be server side. I'm talking more a matter of data structure and lower priority information (such as your current position, actions (reload, hacking, ladders), etc.

Even without increasing client side load - data packets can be restructured to be smaller and more efficient. With the advances in memory that we had people generally take the easy way out with programming where if they took the time and effort they could send the same information with 40% less memory.

I'm referring to the structure more than the client / server load tbh.


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Duck Drahko DUST University Ivy League 65	Posted - 2013.07.23 11:02:00 - [1] - Quote I believe this emperor has no clothes... What I mean is, I am quite certain that Dust includes lag compensation. I actually implemented this type of lag compensation in a few mods myself, back when it was still in theory mode, so I do believe that I would be able to tell if such an essential feature would be missing from Dust. So I'm not sure what you are all talking about. The biggest network-related issue I have with Dust is that it doesn't show my current latency on the server (or even which region I am on, in case I am playing on Automatic or some random squad). I am forced to use a shared WIFI at the moment, so this would be quite important information. Also I get horrible latency on the US server, which makes the game hardly playable for me. But that is normal, no lag compensation can save you once your client view is sufficiently outdated and your reaction times suffer too much. I haven't played a shooter in my life where playing on a different continent is not a severe disadvantage, no matter how good the lag compensation is. But without lag compensation, it would be entirely unplayable (which it is not).
Duck Drahko DUST University Ivy League 70	Posted - 2013.07.24 02:35:00 - [2] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: T3chnomanc3r wrote: Also since you put forth a terrible idea obviously without having done the required reading of the quoted article. We have enough people exploiting weakness of lag comp without adding more vectors: Quote: The question arises, why is hit detection so complicated on the server? Doing the back tracking of player positions and dealing with precision errors while hit detection could be done client-side way easier and with pixel precision. The client would just tell the server with a "hit" message what player has been hit and where. We can't allow that simply because a game server can't trust the clients on such important decisions. Even if the client is "clean" and protected by Valve Anti-Cheat, the packets could be still modified on a 3rd machine while routed to the game server. These "cheat proxies" could inject "hit" messages into the network packet without being detected by VAC (a "man-in-the-middle" attack). Imp Smash wrote: That kind of lag compensation leads to @curving@ bullets and dying behind corners or having your health fall from 70% to 0% in 0 seconds. It's damn annoying. if they could optimize the netcode so that more data is client side and less data is needed to be sent + is sent in smaller easier to use memory packets lag would drop significantly. THEN lag compensation like you describe would be more viable with fewer drawbacks. I'm aware of how too much client side information can open the way for cheating. Critical information should still be server side. I'm talking more a matter of data structure and lower priority information (such as your current position, actions (reload, hacking, ladders), etc. Even without increasing client side load - data packets can be restructured to be smaller and more efficient. With the advances in memory that we had people generally take the easy way out with programming where if they took the time and effort they could send the same information with 40% less memory. I'm referring to the structure more than the client / server load tbh. No network programmer worth their salt is going to take the easy way out with packet sizes, especially not for a realtime shooter. And since Dust is based on the Unreal Engine, I think it's safe to assume that the network code is pretty darn optimised already.
Duck Drahko DUST University Ivy League 79	Posted - 2013.07.25 08:53:00 - [3] - Quote T3chnomanc3r wrote: 1. The client should show your as well as all other client's pings, major CPP mistake IMHO. 2. Lag comp in the form of rewind is clearly employed in Dust and IS giving the constant lagger an ADVANTAGE by letting them play in the past & changing already settled game events. 3, if your ping is bad, you don't belong in a game period. Lag comp like rewind & tolerance for pings >200ms should be sparing & fleeting AKA if it's not a few spikes out you go! 4. FW & PC are done through the London cluster, not regional so no manner of choosing region fixes that. 5. Instants are regional but that does not preclude a lagger from outside your region from playing and many do IMHO to game the lag comp system advantage. 6. All of this is about laggers gaining an advantage. Allowing pings above usable threshold allows CCP (like many console devs) to claim they have a huge base of players even if many of that base can't actually play each other. FWI my ping (using traceroute) averages 160ms over 20 hops to 87.237.38.200, 140ms/13hops worth is Level3.net's backbone starting in Seattle on through to London. More than playable IMHO with the non-intrusive compression & client side prediction IF other players have similar <200ms connectivity. This is not an in game ping so YMMV but is sufficient for "mine is better" comparisons. :) Thank you for the information. I'm surprised that all competitive matches go through London (if that's really true), as that looks like a significant advantage for European teams (I'm not complaining since that's my region, but still...). I used to get upset about high-pingers ruining the game, but not anymore. I guess I've just become more chilled over the years. ;) I think the "rewrite history" concern isn't much of an issue, because the high-pinger has to deal with the same issue exaggerated. Sure it can be annoying for others, but not really unfair. What still bugs me a bit is when high-pingers start warping around like crazy. That _is_ an advantage, because it makes it impossible to keep a rapid fire weapon on target without disruptions, and it's hard to line up a shot to begin with. But to take advantage of that, one would have to combine a very fast suit with a weapon that requires little accuracy, maybe like a shotgun scout or mass driver scout. If I'd see somebody do this while consistently warping around, I would become suspicious... But all in all laggers still have it worse, and getting rid of them is not worth the trouble IMO. Not just would the game become much less inclusive, but it would also inevitably hit all of us occasionally, which would cause a lot of issues (we've probably all heard the jokes of the brother starting his **** download at the wrong time...).
Duck Drahko DUST University Ivy League 80	Posted - 2013.07.25 12:40:00 - [4] - Quote T3chnomanc3r wrote: ... Alright, I should have known better than to try and have a reasonable discussion with a condescending prick. I am out now. Just know that I am not a "console gamer", so your drivel is aimed at the wrong person. As a gamer I've been playing PC online shooters before lag compensation was a thing, and as a game developer I have implemented it in various engines when it did become a thing. Nobody knows everything, and I enjoy discussing these subjects with anybody, but the basic foundation is mutual respect, which you quite obviously lack. Also, your top-postings are annoying. Have a nice day.